Re: SUBS #15: HISTORY, UTILITY THEORY AND 14-PORT DISTRIBUTION HUBS!

On Tue, 24 Feb 2009 04:10:13 -0800, justintonation29 wrote:
>> On Sat, 21 Feb 2009 19:10:30 -0800, justintonation29 wrote: >> >> > How much would it cost to make the simplest self contained subs >> > structure? >> > >> > ~Justin >> >> That's not an answerable question. >> >> How big a place? > > How about a main rectangle approx 4 metres x 8 metres
OK. So the first thing you do it convert that to panels. Around here, plywood is 4'x8'. Use whatever you have at your local lumber store. It should be twice as long as wide.
You want one open room? In JU$A plywood, that's 16' x 32'. For a 16' span, you need to go to 2"x12" framing lumber for your floor. You might go wider if you plan heavy floor loads. That's a REALLY HUGE room. You'll probably want to go much smaller when you think about it, or make it two rooms. But it works fine for an example quote. You can rework this teaching quote for metric materials, local prices, and options such as paint, timber washers, roofing, free labor, etc.
MAIN ROOM: FLOOR = 8 x 16' floor panels 1' thick.
That's a pretty big room. If you shorten it to 12' wide, some codes let you use 6" or 8" lumber for floor supports. You could also save some money with two 8' panels instead of one 16' panel. You just level another row of concrete piers on the ground. Save on lumber, spend more on piers.
Unless you have interior walls to support the roof midspan, you will need the same for the ceiling.
CEILING = 8 x 16' floor panels 1' thick WALLS = 24 x 8' panels 6" thick ROOF = 16 x 12' roof panels to make a peaked roof.
> with a > protruding bedroom 4 metres x4 metres
FLOOR = 4 X 16' floor panels 1' thick WALLS = 12 X 8' panels 6' thick [One wall uses the other side of one of the first room's walls.] CEILING = 4 x 16' floor panels 1' thick. ROOF = 8 x 12' roof panels 6' thick
>and a bathroom 3metres x3 > metres ?
FLOOR = 3 x 12' panels 6"+? thick. [You might go to 8" or thicker framing lumber. Check your codes.] [Note: if you have different thicknesses of floor panels, you need to block your foundation to get them all level.] WALLS = 9 x 8' panels 6" thick [One wall uses the first room.] CEILING = 3 x 12' panels 6"+ thick ROOF = 6 X 8' panels 6" thick.
I'm imagining that we put the two rooms on the flat ends of the big room, so all the peaks of the roofs line up.
>> Windows and doors? > Just one door, none internally.
$200+ up, depending on the door. You want pre-hung doors with frames. They are MUCH easier to install faster. You're going to have three rooms and only one door? Make that at least three doors @ $200 each = $600 You might want even another for an exterior access to the bathroom? CALL IT $800 FOR FOUR DOORS
> Large windows along the long (8 metre) > wall. None on the opposite wall and a small one on each end of the > rectangle.
Call it 10 windows at about $100? each. = $1,000 FOR WINDOWS Count the labor to install them as panel construction cost, so that's already covered under the panels. Add that to the cost of the panels you put them in. You get bonus plywoods the size of windows and doors. On the other hand, you need a bit more framing lumber. All panels are 4' wide = 48". A meter is about 40", so everything in this example is 1/5 bigger than your specs.
SUB TOTALS: MAIN ROOM: FLOOR = 8 x 16' floor panels 1' thick. CEILING = 8 x 16' floor panels 1' thick WALLS = 24 x 8' panels 6" thick ROOF = 16 x 12' roof panels 6" thick to make a peaked roof.
PROTRUDING ROOM: FLOOR = 4 X 16' floor panels 1' thick CEILING = 4 x 16' floor panels 1' thick. WALLS = 12 X 8' panels 6' thick ROOF = 8 x 12' roof panels 6' thick
BATHROOM: FLOOR = 3 x 12' panels 6"+ thick. WALLS = 9 x 8' panels 6" thick CEILING = 3 x 12' panels 6"+ thick ROOF = 6 X 8' panels 6" thick
ADDING UP THE CATEGORIES:
WALLS = 24 x 8' panels 6" thick WALLS = 12 X 8' panels 6' thick WALLS = 9 x 8' panels 6" thick ==============================WALL TOTAL = 45 WALL PANELS [4'x8'x6"] = 45 SHEETS OF 4'X8'X3/4" PLY + 180 [= 45 X 4*] X 8' 2"X6" KILN-DRIED LUMBER * It takes four sticks of lumber to frame a panel
It takes about $50 of materials to build a 6" panel. That's plywood, framing lumber, nails and glue. You can easily check your local lumber prices to refine that quote for your location.
My favorite nail is a 16P galvanized square-shank twist: it's really a coarse screw you drive with a nail gun. They hold fantastic!
It's roughly that much for labor to build it.
Call it $2,250 for wall materials. Double that for estimated labor. $4,500 for total wall cost.
$25 a panel should shoot a really good primer and 2 topcoats on it for a fully weathproof panel. An airless compressor is the only way to paint it sensibly. Put any holes in before painting! [You could skimp for a lot less. And I put some labor costs in too.] That's $1,125 for paint, bringing our wall panel cost to $5,625 for fully sealed weather proof panels you can store outside in the rain.
Estimated total cost of walls = $5,625
You wanted drywall on the inside walls. So you need 45 sheets at about $10 sheet. That's $450. And if you do the walls you'll probably want to do the ceilings too. 24 CEILING PANELS 16' long = 48 8' CEILING PANELS + 3 x 12' panels = 4.5 8' PANELS = 53 CEILING PANELS. That's $530 for ceiling drywall. DRYWALL MATERIALS = $450 + $530 = $980 DRYWALL MATERIALS. I'd guess drywall labor for installation + tape + mud at twice the cost of materials. = $1,960 DRYWALL LABOR
Ooops, I forgot the gable ends. They're part of the walls too. The big room is 16' wide. Peaking it up 8' is enough, and lets us use 8' plywood. Cut the corners off first [it's an easy 4' for this slope]. You get one triangular piece and one 4-sided but not parallel-sided piece.] That's 2 full panel equivalence for each end of the big room = 4 FULL PANELS EQ. For the proptuding room you and = 2 FULL PANELS EQ. [Only one gable.] And for the 12' wide bathroom, [Only one gable.] = 2 FULL PANELS EQ. [some waste] = 8 FULL PANELS FOR GABLES = $400 GABLE MATERIALS = $4O0 GABLE LABOR = $200 GABLE PAINT
This assumes no drywall in the attic, but it has a smooth plywood floor.
Obviously, these prices vary widely, Used/free materials and free labor can cut the bill hugely if you are building a shelter to live in.
If you're really on the cheap, you can nail it together with duplex nails instead of bolts. They are very easy to remove!
But by the time you get to peaked roofs, you'd better have your hardware together, or your building will fall on your head. SUBS Connectors are highly recommended for peaked roof connections.
The best time to paint it is when you build it, flat on a bench, before it gets messed up! Paint the panels before you put the windows and doors in them. No masking!
ROOF = 16 x 12' roof panels 6" thick to make a peaked roof. ROOF = 8 x 12' roof panels 6' thick ROOF = 6 X 8' panels 6" thick ============================ROOF TOTAL 24 X 12' roof panels 6" thick 6 x 8' wall panels
12' roof panels are 1.5 times bigger, and thus more expensive. At $75 each 24 panels = $1,800 6 x $50 for regular panels = $300 = $2,100 FOR ROOF PANEL MATERIALS. = $2,100 ESTIMATE FOR ROOF DECK LABOR
Painting would be $25 for 8' panels and $37.50 for 12' panels for a total of $900 plus $150 or $1,050 PAINT. $2,100 ROOF MATERIALS + $2,100 ROOF DECK LABOR + $1,050 ROOF PAINT $5,250 TOTAL ROOF DECK
Over that you need tar paper and rolled composition roofing, for the cheapest yet reliable roof.
30 pound tar paper is $12.50 a square. 30 year composition roofing is $66.00/square 12.50 + 66.00 = $78.50 + NAILS + TAR + WASTE $100 a square for roof covering MATERIALS. Estimate labor equal to that. 4'x12' panels are just about half a square, so you have $1,200 for your big panels and $400 for your 6 regular panels for a total of $1,600 roofing materials and another estimated $1,600 for roofing labor.
Three-tab shingles would push up both labor and materials costs.
You could even move roof panels: even after you put roofing on! I'd leave the roofing layer on, but fold the panels as I took them out, breaking and cutting the tarpaper and composition, leaving it on the panel. When you put the panel back in a new building, you just tar the seam and put a 6" wide strip of composition over it. It won't look deluxus, but it will keep the water out just fine, cheaply.
FLOOR = 8 x 16' floor panels 1' thick. CEILING = 8 x 16' floor panels 1' thick FLOOR = 4 X 16' floor panels 1' thick CEILING = 4 x 16' floor panels 1' thick. FLOOR = 3 x 12' panels 6"+ thick. CEILING = 3 x 12' panels 6"+ thick
That's 24 FLOOR PANELS 1 foot thick and 16' long. Let's guess 12" timber raises the cost by 50% to $75 per 8', or 48X$75 = $3,600 FLOOR PANEL MATERIALS plus 6 FLOOR PANELS 6" thick and 12' long @ $75 each = $450 materials = $4,050 FLOOR PANEL MATERIALS = $4,050 FLOOR PANEL LABOR GUESS FLOOR PAINT would be $25 x 48 = $1,200 + 6 x $37.50 = $225 = $1,425 TOTAL FLOOR PAINT COST.
CONCRETE PIERS TO SET EVERYTHING ON. 10" high is enough to crawl under. They are about $10 each. We need 18 for the big room 10 for the protruding room 8 for the bath 36 TOTAL PIERS = $360
>> Finished inside walls, or just a shell? > > Finished. > >> Bolted together?
There are ten holes in the edges of a panel. They each fasten two panels together. That's 5 bolts/panel. Call it $1.00/bolt, including 2 washers and a nut. You'll probably use more long than short bolts. If you go to timber washers that almost doubles the price.
BUILDING BOLTS: 45 WALL PANELS X5 = 225 BOLTS 24 X 12' ROOF PANELS 6" thick = 288 BOLTS 6 x 8' WALL PANELS = 30 BOLTS 8 GABLE ENDS = 40 BOLTS 24 FLOOR PANELS 1 foot thick and 16' long. = 384 BOLTS 6 FLOOR PANELS 6" thick and 12' long = 72 BOLTS BOLT TOTAL = 1,039 BOLTS A little over half of them should be LONG BOLTS. The rest are shorts. BOLT COST IS ROUGHLY $1,000 with cheap washers, and about $2,000 if you use heavy timber washers.
> Yep > >> Or just nailed? >> New materials or salvaged? > > New > >> What climate must it resist? > > The bottom of the valley is about 380 meters above sea level, tall > mountains flank the Eastern side. > > The climate is warm sub tropical.
So no expenses for double glazed windows or heating + insulation.
>> More than fired earth and less >> than traditional construction? > > Ok. Any plans to make kits available
Mostly, kits make no sense because plywood and framing lumber is already available just about everywhere. No sense in shipping something from afar that you already have locally. You just need a materials list to take to your local lumber yard.
> or a example modular progression > with parts list and building instructions?
Instructions maybe!
I'm going to put up photos of an 8'x8'x16' woodshed made from abandoned/recycled materials on my web site soon, showing the construction process in much greater detail.
>Perhaps this is where you > can make some money >(i.e assembling subs kits for people to buy).
I don't see kits, but info is needed.
Maybe a book?
Maybe a cost-estimation spread sheet?
And construction sequencer with purchase orders and construction orders to build your dream house ... one room at a time?
>> Nadir Khalili's designs are brilliant, >> but you can't partially build them, >> or take them apart to reuse parts. >> He was a wonderful human being! > > Yeah I get that from his writings ! > > Thanks > > Justin
He was a joy to be around! Always in a good mood, and quoting Rumi!
Anyway, let's get back to our quote. Here's what the damage looks like.
$ 800 FOR FOUR DOORS $1,000 FOR WINDOWS =================$1,800 DOORS + WINDOWS
WALLS: $2,250 WALL MATERIALS $2,250 *WALL LABOR ESTIMATE* $4,500 TOTAL WALL COST UNPAINTED $1,125 PRIME + 2 TOPCOATS PAINT ===============================$5,625 WEATHERPROOF WALL PANELS
$400 GABLE MATERIALS $4O0 GABLE LABOR $200 GABLE PAINT ===============$1,000 GABLES TOTAL
$980 DRYWALL MATERIALS. $1,960 DRYWALL LABOR ESTIMATE ============================$2,940 TOTAL DRYWALL COST
$2,100 ROOF MATERIALS + $2,100 ROOF DECK LABOR + $1,050 ROOF PAINT =======================$5,250 TOTAL ROOF DECK
$1,600 ROOFING MATERIALS $1,600 ROOFING LABOR ESTIMATE ============================$3,200 ROOFING COVERING TOTAL
$4,050 FLOOR PANEL MATERIALS $4,050 FLOOR PANEL LABOR GUESS $1,425 TOTAL FLOOR PAINT COST. =============================$9,525 TOTAL FLOOR COST
36 TOTAL PIERS = $360 $1,000 MINIMUM FOR BOLTS TO $2,000 MAX =======================================$1,360 MINIMUM FOR BOLTS AND PIERS
HERE COME THE TOTALS: $1,800 DOORS + WINDOWS $5,625 WEATHERPROOF WALL PANELS $1,000 GABLES TOTAL $2,940 TOTAL DRYWALL COST $5,250 TOTAL ROOF DECK $3,200 ROOFING COVERING TOTAL $9,525 TOTAL FLOOR COST $1,360 MINIMUM FOR BOLTS AND PIERS =================================$30,700 TOTAL COST OF WEATHERPROOF SHELL WITH DOORS AND WINDOWS, DRY WALL AND ROOF COVERING; BUT NO PLUMBING, WIRING, OR HEAT. $31,700 WITH TIMBER WASHERS ON THE BOLTS.
That's for paid labor to assemble it. If you do it yourself you can save: $2,250 WALL LABOR ESTIMATE $ 4O0 GABLE LABOR ESTIMATE $1,960 DRYWALL LABOR ESTIMATE $2,100 ROOF DECK LABOR ESTIMATE $1,600 ROOFING LABOR ESTIMATE $4,050 FLOOR/CEILING PANEL LABOR ESTIMATE ================================$12,360 TOTAL LABOR COSTS
$31,700 TOTAL SHELL COST MINUS $12,360 LABOR COSTS ==============================$19,340 SHELL MATERIALS COST IF YOU HAVE FREE LABOR TO BUILD IT.
FLOOR AREA: 12 X 16' FLOOR PANELS = 768 SQUARE FEET 3 X 12' FLOOR PANELS = 3 X 12 X 4 = 144 SQUARE FEET ==================================================TOTAL HOUSE FLOOR AREA = 912 SQUARE FEET.
$19,500 SHELL MATERIALS COST/912 SQUARE FEET = $22+ PER SQUARE FOOT MATERIALS COST. $33,100 TOTAL SHELL COST/912 SQUARE FEET = $37+ PER SQUARE FOOT TOTAL COST OF SHELL
This does not count the floor area of the attics. If you count that, the floor area doubles, so the cost per foot is cut in half.
This is an ESTIMATE. But it should be in the right ball park.
Happy Building!
O --- ) \\
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Thanks for the time and energy used to put this together!
It makes it much clearer!
~ Justin
KONCHOK.PENDAY wrote:

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