Re: Design: Pedestrians, bikes, etc.

[Warm Worm]

...While maybe trying to convince some folks that some strokes make environmental and/or ecologic/'nomic sense before they go off the cliff of their making and drag everyone else down with them.

Pollution, excess time, costs & labor.

'Whole nuther'? 'I'll keep my nose out of your business.'? This reads like the late Don. Maybe even the words in caps, too. ;)

At any rate, with regard to "fresh", (storage-ripened, GM, irradiated, etc.) veggies all year round, some are beginning to talk about _how_ they get them from wherever out of season; as well as about growing locally... Perhaps commerce ships will use sails again. (kind of like Amish technology)

[Warm Worm]

What? So it's not my newsgroup server? ;)

[Warm Worm]

Amy Blankenship... mmmm ;}

[george conklin]

)

It was technology, not "modern" medicine, which brought down the death rates from their historic highs, the demographic transition. Moving food long distances was a good bit of the drop. Local? That equates with famine.

[Warm Worm]

I'm all for "technology", given the wise application of it, and I see a lot of questionable applications.

I'm also cautious about the context in which we view death-rates, such as, for some examples, over scales of time (in their postponement or inevitability); in historical records; quality-of-life; or the inherent effects of population-expansion on, say, the ecosystem. If I'm "not living", I might as well be dead.

Plumbing as a "technology", for another example, only goes so far if it ends up as raw, untreated sewage in our oceans. Likewise with mass-production plastic manufacturing in reference to the floating plastic garbage dump in the middle of the Pacific.

The concern with using technology to treat problems brought about by technology also comes to mind.

It's not so much technology, as the capacity to think wisely and desire to live truly happily.

[george conklin]

Clean water was one of the real benefits of industrialization. Factories needed lots of water, and water works were needed. So, yes, plumbing was part of the solution. Sorry you don't think so. And transporting food long distances was essential too. Bad diets = early death.

[george conklin]

Many of the first real factories needed water, but not necessarily potable water. For the first factories, water was a form of energy.

[Amy Blankenship]

Nor was the increased vulnerability of hurricane-prone areas to storms due to loss of wetlands...

[Amy Blankenship]

Generally, factories built during the industrial revolution (and prior thereto) that relied on water power were built on hillsides. They created the small towns and industrial cities of the North-east.

Many of these cities were built in rural areas that had a waterfall. The water supplies were quite pristine but reservoirs had to be built.

Hurricanes really weren't an issue (but an occasional nor'easter might be). Speaking of hurricanes, Ike blew by last night. My son got his first "snow day" of the season because the school didn't have any power.

---------------------------------------------------------- I know Boston was built on a drained swamp, but I had a vague impression there aren't actually a whole lot of malaria-infested swamps in the Northeast. I sort of assumed readers would be able to infer from that that my point wasn't directed at the Northeast, even if it weren't for the obvious fact, which you helpfully pointed out, that it's very rare for a hurricane to hit there. I wasn't addressing your comments about the water supply to factories, but George's comments about drained swamps, which were only tangentially related.

Hope this helps you follow more easily;

Amy

[Warm Worm]

Sorry you don't think I don't think so. ;)

Seriously though, plumbing seems fine on the surface, but my point was in part about contexts and consequences. As a metaphor; you can sweep dirt under the rug in some kind of newfangled technological way and impress everybody about your "low dirt rates", but of course the dirt is still there, and piling up.

I just wrote that if I'm not living, I'd rather be dead. Living to me includes a healthy and vital ecosystem. Life to me is also not about a good diet in exchange for wage slavery, either.

BTW, swamp-/marshland is good for ducks, frogs, arthropods, birds, and all kinds of other creatures-- including us. Apparently, draining it used to be all the rage. Re-routing/-configuring/-locating water, food, land, etc., can have all kinds of unintended consequences... which reminds me of the documentaries, 'Darwin's Nightmare', 'Salton Sea' and the very recently-viewed, 'Manufactured Landscapes':

Especially >> george c>>>

[george conklin]

In the modern world, at least you are alive to complain all the time. In past generations, you would already be dead and not worried about ecosystems. And diets were horrid in the past.

Yes, because malarial swamps killed millions of people every year. The unintended consequence of draining them was a vastly lower death rate and better food too.

[Kris Krieger]

"george conklin" wrote in news:BMidndWdqICcOVDVnZ2dnUVZ [e-mail]:

Er, water delivery over distances, and the advantages of washing, were figured out by the Romans, Arabs, and Chinese long before the industrial revolution.

Hot house vegetables can be grown locally, as opposed to importing hot- house vegetables from far away. For example, the local (Houston area) grocery sells some types of hot-house tomatoes from Canada. THere's something weird about that.

Also, fruits, etc., which have to be picked green because they'd otherwise rot on theri way from Chile or oher distant areas have been shown to be lower in nutrients than ripe gruit and vegetables. So sorry, but there are advantages to "going local".

[Kris Krieger]

Warm Worm wrote in news:gankd5$s6$ [e-mail]:

What's wrong with you, don't you *like* rivers that catch fire? Come on already, what's not to love - the fish come out pre-boiled! Plus all the heavy metals add *heft* (and what's wrong with an extra eye or two).

Even more simply and to the point, why export the locally-grown produce and then import the same produce from hundreds or even thousands of miles away...? That is what currently happens quite often.

That was actually interesting ;) TOo often, it's a case of "out of sight, out of mind". The point IMO isn't to turn into a Luddite, but rather, to take *all* factors into account, to not simply *ignore* the consequences of various actions, and instead mitigate negative effects.

[Warm Worm]

Where/when/how, and compared with industrial fast food and high-sugar pops and their effects? Despite wisdom to the contrary? Industrial pesticides? Was 'organic' how everyone farmed in the past?

Although I'm no epidemiologist, I'm tempted to wager that, by eliminating one "disease vector" by some kinds of questionable methods, you open up a few more. From what is understood, many swamps and marshes are being reclaimed/renewed/recreated anyway.

[Warm Worm]

Good points in support.

[Kris Krieger]

Warm Worm wrote in news:gapp66$9s8$ [e-mail]:

Here is an anecdote.

When I lived in Vancouver, BC, I noticed that the beef all strted to taste "off" - I cut waaaay back on it because I felt like I was eating spoiled or partially-spoiled meat, that is how nasty the stuff started tasting. Turned out that the good Canadian beef was being exported, and teh local stores were getting in Brazilian beef, becaust it was "more profitable". Nobody ever asked whetehr we might want to at least have teh *opportunity* to pay mroe for better beef - they just up and switched the supply. I wonder whether rising fuel prices nixed that...

[Warm Worm]

More stuff to incense. >:\\