desiging for a Haiti scale earthquake

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wrote:

Haven't got around to finishing my shipping container project -
http://people.aapt.net.au/jclark19 /
But it came out around $A 10,000 for '07 BCA specs Climate Zone 1 (Tropics) as owner/builder project, so maybe a lot less than half that for basic provision? Perhaps the 6 posts could be reduced to 4? SC forklifts only have 2 lifting rails, so posts could go at the lifting points.
With a bit of weight in them and/or reasonably anchored they don't turn over in a cyclone/hurricane.
Foil-batt insulation is in the roof space, internal wall panelling is recycled refrigeration liner. Could convert a ready-lined refrigeration container - ok in this climate with reasonable natural ventilation.
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Too small, go with the full 55' length version. Pack em in like Gunga Din.......
Spray 6" of foam all over the entire outside, even underneath, then shotcrete the shell and spray paint them a sand color. Cut an 6'x6'8" sliding glass door in each end, no windows anywhere, no full height interior walls so as to eliminate the necessity for egress windows, roof turbines every 8', 2" concrete internal floor (#4000 psi) with 1/6" per foot slope from middle to ends. Set the whole thing on 14" square x 28' long concrete pilings, one at each corner and 2 at mid point, anchor with 4" wide x 1/8" thick stainless steel strapping up and over at each pair of pilings. Anchor strapping to pilings with (8) .357 16d x 1" ramsets. It ain't goin' nowhere.......
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wrote:

Maybe, but more difficult to transport/lift

Costing? Resilience?

what for?

I think the costs have blown out ...
The floors of these things are adequate - they are packing cases after all ...
A few years back in West Oz couple of dozen people took shelter from a Category 5 (80m/sec + winds) in a 20m/55' container. Must have been rough, but it didn't turn over and they all came out ok.
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Maybe you and I are thinking about different types of shipping containers. My knowledge of them is limited. Those I've seen were basically thick sheet metal with corrugations. In a hot environment like Haiti they would become microwave ovens. Spray on insulation would be the easiest way to get the job done and the shotcrete would offer protection from insects and other creatures as well as flying debris during any future storms and the units themselves could be oriented in accordance with the prevailing winds so as to provide necessary air circulation from the end wall sliding doors.
You objected to the costs of my suggestion, but from the very beginning I brought up that topic and nobody further addressed it. We're talking about an island out in the middle of the ocean, inhabited by a group of people that don't have a pot to piss in and never did nor will they ever, and we're all dreaming in pixels out loud.
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wrote:

Yes
Yes
There is a lot to be said for putting the insulation of the outside, but then you need the shotcrete to protect it? Container insulation comes inside plastic laminated sheets. Would be reasonably resilient attached to the steel sides, but would need to be fixed manually. If there's enough surplus already-insulated containers that would be a start.
An undamaged container is reasonably secure against insects. If they fall off ships when empty, they float just below the surface for a time.

True. As I said before, I think a lot will depend on whether there is any local ingenuity, and anything available for it to work on. Inadequately reinforced concrete or masonry seems to have predominated - not a good sign.
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Agreed. You can shake the daylights out of a shipping container and it won't be harmed. One of my reasons for the sprayed insulation and shotcrete exterior was first to not reduce the inside dimensions with internal insulation and to create a resilient exterior. Also, I figured these containers could be renovated on the mainland then shipped to the island fully assembled and only requiring a proper foundation on site to receive them. Sort of like the FEMA shelters here in the US but much, much cheaper.
When its all said and done I don't really expect things to get any better on that disastered island except by the individual people that live there. I also heard that many of them are being brought over to the US in bulk. Just lovely.
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In part because there may be wood in the floor, I'm still thinking along the lines of laying the containers vertically (Maybe even diagonally) as opposed to the typical horizontal layouts I've seen. Wood's apparently easier to work with than metal, so if it becomes a wall, it seems to open up more possibilities, such as with fenestration, ventilation, access, etc.; and the vertical stacking may also lend itself to; relating the houses to each other in interesting/ creative ways (ie., townhouses, connections, skywalks, balconies); more permanence/attractiveness/desirability, and to land-use efficiency and community, etc..
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Oh ya, and if its possible to see some of the wood on one side, it may end up looking less like a shipping container without even trying and even look quite nice. Has anyone ever seen the underside of a shipping container? Is it feasible to display?
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The ones I've seen - steel box ribs both sides for the fork-lift rails, cross ribs, flat or checker-plate steel floor.
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Fair enough. In any case, I'd be careful with treating insult with injury, especially seeing as we might be considering recycling the older ones:
"Treatment of timber floors. To meet Australian Government quarantine requirements most container floors when manufactured are treated with insecticides containing Copper (23-25%) Chromium (38-45%) and Arsenic (30-37%) Before human habitation floors should be removed and safely disposed of. Bamboo plywood does not normally require quarantine treatment.
Cargo Spillages A container can carry pretty much anything during its working life. Particular care should be taken (especially with 20ft containers) that no spillages or contamination has occurred on the inside walls. Ideally all internal surfaces should be abrasive blasted to bare metal, and re-painted with a non toxic paint system.
Solvents Solvents released from paint and sealants used in manufacture might be harmful."
-- Wikipedia
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I had an idea for a design for a shipping container and even began it while mentioning it on here about 6 or 7 years ago, but then my laptop took a dive and I lost some of its design, so that and my motivation at the time put it on indefinite hold. Seeing as I've become more interested in natural housing, I doubt it'll ever get designed. That said, however, my design consisted of 2 containers standing upright, where their lengths became their heights, and slightly staggered from each other, elevation-wise, the doors, maybe welded, becoming balconies and/or floor-extensions. I'm supposed to do some travelling shortly, but might have time to whip something up beforehand. Last I looked (2004), if recalled, a standard 20' container (steel or aluminum?) went for ~$3000 USD. Some also can be found to have good wood in their floorings-- teak I think.
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"Ken S. Tucker"> wrote:

$3k is WAAY too expensive. You can build 8"w x 20'l x 8'h out of standard wood frame materials for less than $500.
What is frequently used inside shipping containers? Wood Pallets. So gather up thousands of pallets and ship them to Haiti and let the people create their own domains.
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"Ken S. Tucker"> wrote:

How fine? I tried to find 20/20 around here but had to settle for 16/18 and that stuffs big enough for a moturk to fly through at full speed.
to prevent no-see-ums

Both are trying to avoid the moisture in your crawl space. Eliminate all moisture and those guys will haul.

They have more experience than you have caulk.

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Spiderz iz good, but creepy. They stalk the other insects. If you have spiders then you also have other insects. Eliminate the spiders food (other insects) and they, the spiders, will go elsewhere. The only way to eliminate insects, and I'm not sure even this will work, is to completely encase all 6 sides of the crib in visqueen with taped joints and no one enters or leaves. LOL
Do you believe that thing about 7 spiders? In your sleep?
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See, you have to start with a set of parameters in order to have a beam of focus. For your vision 20x20 works, for mine 16x16 will work. Target - focus - goal.
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Modification is my middle name. If I let something set for a spell I find a better/different way of doing it, thats just the way it is.
Now 16'x16' may seem tight to some, but it was *you* that gave me the idea to do it that way. See, I had to *focus* on the goal, and the goal was to provide a comfortable, inexpensive, self contained, off-grid home for 1 or 2 people. My favored lifestyle won't fit in that shoebox. However, maybe the key isn't in the size but rather the quantity. *You* told me you have an out building or 2 on your property. I'm thinking the same thing. A separate building for housing a vehicle or 2, snowmobile(s), canoes/ kayaks, gardening equipment, wood stove fuel, tools, etc., etc. That building would actually be built first and would facilitate the building of the dwelling for storage, temporary quarters, etc.
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Speaking of *parameters*, who is paying for the above? If it is paid for persons other than the occupants then there will be no pride of ownership or personal responsibility.
My understanding was that much of that place was already a ghetto resulting in part because of the enormous governmental encroachments over the past 100 years or so and really all the way back to 1492.

I got a couple tarps and 5 gallon buckets I'll donate.

Yes, conveyed, that is a good word.
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I'd think twice about that because they might have another use for any drawing tube you might have if that came within earshot.
I would also be cautious about putting a certain level of emphasis for some questionable notions/measurements of intelligence or making armchair inferences by distance on people's intelligence/type of thinking, etc., (or presenting a certain spin on your own logical modality.)
Dubious, unquestioning cultural acquisition of some notions can be devastating to some.

Or maybe brainwashed with a work ethic and to do one thing well? Work ethics seem more "required" when one has been reduced to specialization and theft of one's own land and/or resources, since we're speaking of pride of ownership.
"The work ethic has become obsolete. It is no longer true that producing more means working more, or that producing more will lead to a better way of life. The connection between more and better has been broken; our needs for many products and services are already more than adequately met, and many of our as-yet- unsatisfied needs will be met not by producing more, but by producing differently, producing other things, or even producing less. This is especially true as regards our needs for air, water, space, silence, beauty, time and human contact... the social process of production no longer needs everyone to work in it on a full- time basis. The work ethic ceases to be viable in such a situation and workbased society is thrown into crisis." -- Andr Gorz, Critique of Economic Reason,Gallil,1989
Unsure what your recent apparent preoccupation is with "neurological states", by the way, but I'll mention making some points some time ago on alt.arch about that if recalled. In short, intelligence is a complex thing that we don't really quite know a lot about. Your philosophical knowledge (70's?) may need updating. Lateral effort if you will. We have the world's greatest repository of knowledge right at our fingertips.
from another thread:

Through no lack of trying I presume?
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Good.
There's a difference between working for something and working for "nothing" or worse.

Which is why I would caution for knowledge that is flawed or dated. There seems to be less sense in applying that kind of knowledge.

The point about the apparent missing 'l' in "funky" and perhaps the irony in your writing (ie., "Mr. Spook" apparently instead of "Mr. Spock") vis-a-vis your contention about English literature and, as you say, what "drives kids to take drugs".
I also wonder if the habitual (creative) "dumbing down" or "smarting up" of English Composition can affect the author's thinking and reading over time. and if so, how. Does language influence thinking? Many logical folks seem to think so.

Adults too, it appears.

How about disciplined writing? When you write, you create literature.
There might indeed be a Mr. Spook to be found in the fog.
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Cool... AI's a pretty broad field and runs the gamut, being very cross- disciplinary by nature and necessity-- lateral as you might say. Some time ago, I was enrolled in a somewhat cross-disciplinary science/ sociology programme at Concordia University that touched on AI, among other things. I also did an essay then too about "terraforming" that I only just recently got around to copying from paper to laptop for an eventual rewrite and post to my site. I'll let you know if you'd like when. I also ran into an online forum that discusses its hypothetics. Good fun.
Incidentally, I also ran into some amateur astronomers in a mall parking lot of all places a couple of weeks ago and got to take a look through one of their telescopes of the moon. What a stunner. I could almost feel the fine dust in my hands. One of the guys impersonated a good Carl Sagan. Ever watched his Cosmos show?

Well there you have it.

That five-ring circus? I'd rather go see one that admits it's one. ;)
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